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This episode covers the shame trigger of sex. Samantha talks with Mr. Fox, who is the owner of Calm Fox Coaching. Fox talks a lot about how conversations having to do with sex need to be normalized because so much of our culture has either over-sexualized things that shouldn't be, or have created a stigma around the topic of sex that has made it taboo. He describes how we can all start working on normalizing those conversations that feel awkward at first, but get easier over time. Fox has plenty of tips for how we can get a head start on normalizing things for our kids, too, so listen in as he and Samantha "Flush It Out!"
Flushing It Out with Samantha Spittle, the Introvert's Extrovert. The podcast where she talks to people so you don't have to...for now.
Samantha Spittle 0:00
I have like my own baggage around stuff. So I'm not like super sex positive, like anything goes because I'm like, What about the trauma? What about the broken nests? What about the people you're hurting? Like,
Mr. Fox 0:12
we can talk about those things, too. There are ways to do all sorts of over the top aggressive, intense, painful things and sex. Yeah, that for some people, they are trauma triggers for other people, they are how they reclaim themselves post trauma. So being able to talk about how it's different for everyone, based off our experience is different for everyone based off of what we've been normalized around. And even when you talk with people who are more into BDSM, on the kink scene, and you're trying to figure out, you know, okay, you say everything is okay, whereas the actual line, well, especially in BDSM, and kink that hopefully, there's more education there around stating your limits, having an actual collaborative discussion before doing anything to be sure you're both on the same page. And there's usually the basic standards of no broken bones, no blood, no chips, the hospitals, stuff like that. So even in the accept everything, because I don't think I know anyone who actually accepts everything. Even within those spheres, depending on the people that are involved, it can be actually more communicative, more intentional and safer than your standard. Non kinky date. Hmm,
Samantha Spittle 1:29
interesting. All right. So I think let's have, let's have because I always love when you and I talk, because I feel like you are open and you are good listeners. So I think I love this idea of having this how do we have a sex positive conversation, when we all have so much baggage around sex, where I'm coming from in this conversation is it's like, growing up in sort of purity ish culture, like kind of knowing that like you don't, you know, you wait till marriage, this is with marriage. But then I also watched like, a ton of soap operas, pretty women that are dancing on my favorite movies, you know, and but it was also it was something that it was like, that is just TV. And I know a lot of people, you know, grow up kind of, like, sexist for just marriage and things like that. And that's totally cool, if that's your beliefs. But even with those beliefs, there's this issue that I see where it's like, you just are supposed to flip the switch sexes this shameful thing. And then suddenly you get married. And it's like, your sex, you know, all the sex of your husband. And it's like, there's so much baggage. So I'd love to dive in with you today about like, how do we talk about this, because so much of us, as I said, have this baggage. So before we jump in Fox, love to have you introduce yourself, and let's do this.
Mr. Fox 2:53
Thank you. So I'm Fox, I go by Fox, or Mr. Fox, I am a mental health coach, who, prior to COVID, I worked as an in home family therapist. And for the last, actually conveniently, for the last 10 years almost precisely. I've had a bit of a hobby working within the kink, queer, non monogamous, polyamorous entities, scenes, communities, whatever you want to call them. And that's kind of something I've always done. So talking about these things, is something I love to do.
Samantha Spittle 3:30
Awesome. And as we talked about, before we started, you know, jumping into the episode, it's like, okay, I want to have this conversation. But I'm kind of uncomfortable to because I've got my own baggage and some of the things you just talked about. It's like, oh, I don't who I don't know about those things. I don't, I don't really want to. It's a lot. It's a lot. So how do we even start this conversation of, I guess, how to even talk about it. I don't even know where to begin. Because it's like, like I said, You already said things and I'm like, oh, Fox, I'm feeling a little, I'm feeling a little uncomfortable. I'm feeling uncomfortable. So how do we jump in? By doing
Mr. Fox 4:08
exactly what you said, by owning the fact that it's awkward by owning the fact that we don't really know how to talk about these things in a way that feels comfortable or convenient or easy? And then of course, add in generational effects. And when you're talking to it makes this whole big thing a lot more complicated. Which, yeah, when you're talking about two people doing a very intimate physical act, it's going to be complicated, because people, by definition, are messy, and complex and nuanced, and usually not fully aware of what we're doing. Yes. Having some humor about it can also go a long way. I remember a long, long time ago. I think it was actually some undergrad for this. I saw posts online saying something about the nature of sex is supposed to be silly and awkward. Yes, we want to be romantic. Yes, we want This positive wonderful experience, but the reality is you never really know what to expect. And sometimes you're gonna, you know, trip over a goat or stub your toe against every single hard surface surrounding the bed. It depends. And that's kind of the fun of it. as uncomfortable as that maybe.
Unknown Speaker 5:19
Did you say trip over a goat?
Mr. Fox 5:21
Yes, I entirely meant that not seriously. I do not in any way shape or form and condone animal abuse or nonconceptual sexual acts with animals. But yes, the reality of well, what effect it could be a stuffed animal. We don't know. Okay. Kids transformer toy that is one of those animal ones that you step on and your foot is killing you all of a sudden. But ya know, the point being that none of us are these suave, sexy, perfect. Yeah. Beatings, especially in the US, especially in the US. Yeah. So yeah, now we're, we start by owning the fact that we don't really have a lot of practice talking about this, that it's gonna be awkward until it isn't. And that it's the process. Yeah.
Samantha Spittle 6:07
All right, well, I'm good at owning that part. So I can own that. I was telling you before I listened to a great podcast last week, it's part of the Jen Hatmaker series elephants in the room, part three, and it's addressing broken sexual behavior with Jay stringer. So I recommend listening to it so that you'll be able to get, you know, listeners can get my backstory. But in it, he talked about that, you know, when it comes to sex, we either pathologize everything, or accept everything, and that it's more important to understand our own sex stories. And the reason I wanted to reference that, and I'd love to kind of pick your brain is that, you know, as I said, you mentioned things that it's like, okay, I don't know if I think this is for me, or I agree with it. But hey, who do I how do I know what works for someone, and you said something really interesting about the way we kind of work through whether it's we have trauma associated with sex, or just our own, you know, maybe it's not trauma, but just start on the weirdness of our upbringing, and the messages we receive and all of that. And so I would love to hear your take on how do we view all of this sex stuff? Even like, weird? How do we view this kind of in a healthy way to own our own stuff, have healthy boundaries, there's a lot there.
Mr. Fox 7:25
So how we interact with that, of course, depends heavily on who we are. Everyone is going to have their own experiences, both in terms of how they experience sex being introduced in their lives, whether by a family member, or by the Internet, or by friends or whatever. As well as taking a very real look at what are the things that impact how I view sex? What are the things what messages have I received, what subliminal messages have I received? I mean, there's a lot even just an every day, media and not even social media just commercials, that it adds a lot of sexual context to things that don't necessarily need to be sexual. Most commercials that are targeted to women will have some focus on their appearance or their body shape and size. Whereas most things targeted to men are going to be focused more on, do the thing empowered, be yourself. And even in that regard, that's still a very male Cates. And that's where that that marketing style doesn't necessarily isn't supposed to work for the actual women who that's being promoted to, because while it's being produced by men, yeah, but even in terms of kids, swimwear, or beauty contests for people under the age of 10. Like there's a lot of things that we attach sexual connotations to, due to social construction that don't really have anything to do with sex outside of societies. Your point, I, I will happily follow up afterwards. I don't actually remember who was talking about this. But this was something in regards to sex positive parenting, where apparently, person had two kids and one kid had an outie belly button. And the sibling was the siblings were having fun making each other laugh by licking and sucking an outie belly button, which of course, the parents saw. I'm like, Oh, my God, don't do that. That is not okay. But then both kids said, but it tickles. And they were fully clothed. They were not doing anything inherently sexual. Due to the nature of the activity, which they didn't even understand sex that time. That's not something that they saw it as they were just playing with each other. Yeah, completely age appropriate way because kids are naturally going to explore and do those things like that. Anyways, just owning the fact that we're all sexual beings in the fact that that's naturally what we do makes a big difference.
Samantha Spittle 9:56
Yeah. I think what's hard for me is even hearing that knowing you know, having, you know, being connected to sexual abuse and things like that, that it's like it automatically makes me like uncomfortable. Like, oh, I don't like yeah, I would want to put the kibosh on that because I don't want anything that could possibly be traumatic. And so it's that fine line, like you said, of if it's, well, it's not sexual, like we're putting that on. But once again, this goes back to the, our own baggage that we're bringing to the table. And so like, for me, I want to shut down. Like, I've noticed that because of my experience now with walking through trauma with another person, you know, unpacking their sexual abuse and whatnot, it is hard, like, I just want to lock it up. Like, what, that's why this sex topic this month, you know, I did an episode early on in the podcast with a friend. And it was kind of just more in the context of personal experience with, you know, marriage and be married to the same person and how your sex life kind of ebbs and flows through the years. And it was more of a light hearted conversation. And I think this month, you know, now that I have so much more, honestly, trauma around it. It's such a harder thing to tackle. Yeah. And, you know, you mentioned with parents, like, you know, you brought up the story, it's like, Oh, that makes me uncomfortable. I'm trying to figure out, you know, how do we like my thing, so if my kids are ever listening to this, it's like, wanting to view sex, you know, it's like, it's created to be a good thing, you know, to connect to your partner. You know, for me personally, it's like, I want it to be in a safe, committed way. But I also don't want to attach to me labels to it to cause more shame and all this stuff. It's very hard. I guess it's a mix of your own values. You know, let's say if a parent has certain values, you know, they're, they don't want their kid like, yeah, go do whatever you want. They want they have their own values around it, but also not wanting to shame them, how can you start tackling that,
Mr. Fox 11:56
by encouraging them to go to therapy,
Samantha Spittle 12:00
I just had that conversation with a friend, I'm like, it's easier when someone else is not connected.
Mr. Fox 12:04
Yes. And that actually very much as the piece that to some degree, we need someone who can actively say, I'm going to hold the space for you, I'm not going to judge you, I'm not going to make fun of you. I'm not going to cringe when you say the words that socially make people nervous, but our biological parts of our anatomy, vagina, vulva, anus. These are things that a lot of people, these are dirty, bad words, when they're young, they're no more dirty or bad than finger or eye, or ear or stomach. It's very much how we interact with them. And to some degree, until we really understand what we're dealing with, for ourselves internally, we don't really know how we're going to respond to these things. Starting with looking at our own internal, that helps a lot.
Samantha Spittle 12:51
That was my next question was how do we start looking at our own stuff? You know, going back to that podcast I referenced, you know, our own sex story. And I think that I can't speak for anyone else. But I know for me, it's like, I think there's a certain fear of unpacking some of it, because it's like, am I going to find something in here that feels broken, or traumatic or something. And then, of course, for other people, they know, there's trauma in there, and it's something you've locked away, because you don't want to deal with it. So all those things are here, you know, I know for everyone listening, so regardless of where you're at, how can you start kind of looking at that your identity, your story, your relationship to sex,
Mr. Fox 13:29
usually, by starting at the beginning, looking at what messages you received from who, as far back as you can remember around sex, whether it was things like, make sure to wash up well, and that type of shower, or it was things like, dare I say, walking in on your parents, which is a normal age appropriate thing. To for many kids these days, a lot of people start seeing and interacting with sex between the ages of seven and 10, because of the internet. So before we can really talk with them, and we need to acknowledge what did that mean from sex? What were my experiences with this, but there is actually a test that most therapists will actually do or hopefully will do, that is meant to identify their own sexual reactivity, their own sexual topic that triggers not the same as necessarily trauma triggers, but just being able to identify what they're comfortable with what they're not comfortable with. And when I am not on this podcast, I will make sure to send me that like afterwards because to some degree, that can be a very effective way. Yeah, yeah. The other option is go to a porn site. Look at what makes you uncomfortable and think about why you don't have to watch the whole thing. You don't have to really get into it. You don't have to go down the rabbit hole although most people do, which is why this is something you should do intentionally. A little bit of exposure can give us a good opportunity to go What about this makes me uncomfortable? That's not something I recommend doing for people who have a lot of trauma around sexual assault. The because to some degree that can be re traumatizing if you actively just go straight into whatever you experienced. But we're not really going to know what we're comfortable with. If we never have to interact with it, it's a lot easier to say I'm comfortable with getting a car accident, I'm comfortable with joining the military going off to war. But the reality is, we don't think about some of the more intense experiences with those things.
Samantha Spittle 15:24
So definitely, I feel like this is the point at which it's like, here's a reminder, this is not therapy, and we highly recommend working with professional, especially if this is triggering. So you said, figure out what you're comfortable with, but like, what do you do with that, then so okay, I definitely do not, this makes me uncomfortable, like, then what
Unknown Speaker 15:41
I'm gonna be okay about that. Really don't
Mr. Fox 15:44
talk about it with other friends talk about with other trusted relationships, there's nothing wrong with saying this is my limit, I don't really feel comfortable with those things. But we can't really do that until we actually take some time looking around that limit and figuring out where that line is for each of us. Which is why again, having someone who is trained to do that work, such as a therapist can go a really long way. And also there are sex educators, there are sex education organizations and processing groups that do exist. So there are definitely other mediums to go about it. But really, we start with acknowledging what we are aware of is going to have an impact on us, identifying what around that we're willing to talk about, and what we are going to say, you know, that's something that I needed to do some work on for myself, we're not going to go into that topic right now. And that's a really important piece, because it's going to be awkward until it isn't, it's going to be uncomfortable until it isn't. And there's no benefit to denying that it kind of gets in the way more than anything.
Samantha Spittle 16:45
Yeah, I like that idea of owning that, you know, I feel like that you're not trying to change anything, you're not trying to get comfortable with something that makes you uncomfortable. I personally, you know, like said, going into this conversation, it's like, okay, I'm kind of uncomfortable, because of all the all the baggage I bring to the table. And so, for me, it's like, oh, okay, you can identify your boundaries without changing those boundaries, which is very important. We're talking about this in the context of couples. And of course, that can look different. There's monogamy, consensual, non monogamy, poly, there's all these different things. And then there's a plethora of things that you can bring into the bedroom and try and run to the bedroom, wherever. You know, for me, I have identified that a trigger point for me is this whole idea of course, consensual. I don't know how to say it other than like shady, predatory behavior, you know, that for me makes me very uncomfortable and which is why there's a lot of things that I just keep it an arm's length away of, I do not like, I don't agree, I say agree, cuz I don't want it to come across as a judgmental thing. But it's like, for me my boundaries is anything that even hints at predatory or just something, you know, I don't like it. But obviously, I'm realizing that's because that's my boundary. And that's why I'm uncomfortable with that. But how do couples tackle this? Because, you know, I, I'm known, I used to say, like, I don't like anything, I say Dateline shit, which is anything that was on Dateline that ended in a murder, you know, it always started out with something sexually. And it like, led to that I know, it doesn't always and I'm having a, I know that there's safe ways to do it. And so that's kind of what I would love to get into is because I feel like my experience is people try stuff, you know, whether they open up their marriage, and it ends in murder. I know, it doesn't happen all the time. Or most of the time, I should say. But that's for me, my background. And so how do you do it? So that's the dramatic part, because I can be a little dramatic, but there's so much brokenness, betrayal, abuse, and not just with sex, I mean, in relationships, right. And this is one piece of that. And, and that's why I think it also this is an uncomfortable conversation for me, because I'm always go into that place of unsafe relationships, predatory stuff. So how can couples navigate this, so that it is truly a healthy, consensual thing for both of them? So how do couples navigate this?
Mr. Fox 19:09
So you actually said part of it yourself? You're talking about how, you know how can couples be more sex positive. And depending on where you go, the definition of sex positive very much focuses around the reality at every individual individual being is going to naturally have their own experiences around sex. And it's important to empower and embrace those experiences as opposed to trying to fit them in a box or saying this is what that should look like. So if we're truly being sex positive, that means not shaming each other for what we're into sexually. That's not the same as forcing or coercing and that's its own piece. And even within couples to some degree, it's helpful to talk about you know, how, how have you witnessed couples conflict, how have you witnessed people managing their reactivity how have you witnessed people resolving conflict, because those are all skills that are needed to when talking about these topics because these are sensitive topics, being able to identify what you're each comfortable with those really along the way. It also helps to remember that consent goes with fries, which makes it a little bit easier to remember the importance of consent to be heard consent go the fries, please explain. Right. So done by Planned Parenthood. Consent is easy when served with fries, freely given as in not coerced, not pushed, not pressured, reversible meaning either, Hey, I said I was okay with this before but thinking about it now I'm not as well as hey, I thought I'd be okay with this. We tried this thing. I'm not actually as okay with this, as I thought I was I kind of want to revoke my consent around things going forward. Informed is very much the nature of the work, we are aware of the reality that what you're doing involves some inherent risks. Even if you are having completely consensual, monogamous, very traditional sex, there is always the reality that you make and get a UTI from sex without any bad things happening without any misdemeanor or predatory behavior, you can still get a UTI from everyday sex. So these things, these activities do have some inherent risk purely because of the reality is what we do. Enthusiastic is next in terms of not just Yes, I'll do that. But no, I really want to do that. Yes, I want to do that. Yes, that's something that will be good for me. If you don't talk about it, if you aren't given that, yes, you don't do it. Yeah. And then finally specific, which is the same one of informed enthusiastic, we're only doing what we specifically talked about. And for couples, it's important to talk about what that looks like for them. Because depending on your family of origin, where you grew up, geographically, we have all sorts of different knowledge around how that works. But that, of course, requires people to do their own work for us, which most of us don't like doing, myself included.
Samantha Spittle 21:58
Yes, and the older I get, and the more work I've done, I'm like, Oh, I'm finally getting it, why you do your own work because our lens, so much of our lens in which we, you know, view the world and view situations as our own stuff, and what we project and everything. I love what you said about you need to do your own work first. And then you have an open and honest conversation with your partner first, to kind of keep this in a healthy terms, you know, whatever this sex life is gonna look like? Do you think that a lot of the times people just run into different things or don't try things, because of that lack of communication
Mr. Fox 22:36
is a very big part of it. Yes. If we don't feel we have a safe place or a safe person to do activities with, we're not going to explore ourselves, we're not going to figure out what feels good for ourselves. And there are plenty of people who can do that on their own. And that's because whatever the context, something struck them internally that they wanted to do that work on their own. Figuring out how that looks for you is the important thing. Some people need someone to talk that through with other people can do it on their own.
Samantha Spittle 23:03
One thing that Tom over 10 shared on the trauma series, he talked about, you know, why do we work through our trauma. And he said, if you're not being like, fulfilled, that's the wrong word. Because that actually sounds more like superficial, but your relationships, if your relationships are not basically what you want them to be, then there's an opportunity to unpack something, heal something. And I feel like I'm realizing that with through the lens of this with our sex talk, it feels very similar that, you know, yeah, how do you know and if you and your partner is working, but the thing in marriages, isn't it like sex money and something else are like the biggest things that are issues in marriage? So it's like, oh, okay, you have to go back and kind of explore your own sex story, and origins and what you're comfortable with, and then have those conversations. So that it's not this weird thing?
Mr. Fox 23:59
Yep. And if you think about it, how many of us have sex and money are the two biggest sources of conflict within couples? How many of us go to an actual class on sexual education that is comprehensive? Before we get into relationship? How many of us get financial awareness education before we start having to pay taxes? Like the reality is most of us don't have this education? Yeah. A lot of us know about sex because our parents told us about sex. A lot of us know about sex because no one told us about sex. We found out about it on the internet.
Samantha Spittle 24:29
Yeah. So that's a great point. Okay. So as parents since there's a lot of parents listening, as I said, it's kind of this whole values thing like, okay, as a parent, I don't want it to be that like, go discover, explore yourself and then aka the underlying message to be do do anything like the parent in me is like, oh, gosh, no, but like said, a very common thing is like, just wait, you know, wait till you're married. That's what it does. And then it's nothing and there's so much shame around that. So you know, we just talked before a little bit about it. But I'd love to kind of go a little deeper into, like,
Mr. Fox 25:02
what does that look? Like? What does what looked like this whole
Samantha Spittle 25:07
sex positive with parenting? And I guess it's hard. This isn't just, you know, if this was a branded as a certain podcast, or if it was like a religious pot, you know, religious where, you know, my thing is more kind of like, we all have different backgrounds, you know? So it's kind of like, there's not going to be one exact answer. But I guess for me, it's like, at the end of the day, my thing is, you know, wanting to raise our kids kind and healthy, emotionally healthy, keeping, honest, open communication, going through all the stages. So I guess, if I'm looking at it, we'll just say through my lens, where it's like, okay, I want to, I don't want it to be this open free road, go discover, do whatever you want. But I don't want to like make it this shame, can't talk about it, just put it off, put it off, put it off.
Mr. Fox 25:57
So ideally, this is something you have already talked about with your partner or spouse before actively having kids. Most couples don't, which is why it exists.
Samantha Spittle 26:08
And why after someone listening to this today, they can then talk to their spouse about it to say, Okay, this is these are the tips or insights I got.
Mr. Fox 26:15
And very much starting when they're young, starting with talking about things biologically without having to actively put different terms on them. Even simply being able to acknowledge that this is how our bodies work. This is how anatomies work. We start there, we start by effectively trying to take out the awkwardness because we're not going to wait until they're a teenager to suddenly start talking about their bodies and their sexuality, we're going to start talking about their body when they're born. When they understand English, when they understand whatever language we're speaking. And by doing. So we take a lot of the awkwardness out of it. If you spent 13 years, the word that comes to mind is the old thing from the serious scrubs. If you spent 13 years talking about your vagina as a virgin go, do it makes it harder to talk about these things when you can use the actual anatomical term. So we start with that. And then
Samantha Spittle 27:15
it's actually safer. Right. But that was one of the best tips I heard is for young kids, it is safer because predators use different words. So just a little plug for that for safety. Yes, anatomically correct.
Mr. Fox 27:29
And we start with that. And from there, we build up slowly. a six year old doesn't necessarily need to know the ins and outs of rape culture and what they should be wearing. However they do we need to know how to advocate for their consent, they do need to know how to say this doesn't feel good, I need to help or No, I don't want to do that thing. It doesn't necessarily need to be having formal conversations around oral sex, it is talking about basic human interaction.
Samantha Spittle 28:03
I, it's like I'm happy to connect the dots like oh my gosh, like that's something that's, you know, with my kids, at least one in the context of speaking up for themselves. So I love that reminder, because it's like, Oh, it doesn't have to be through the lens of sex. Like, oh, I want you to, you know, we're going to talk about consent through the lens of sex, we're just talking about consent of its, you know, it can be with something physical, like hugging, you know, there's been thankfully, I was gonna go to Yeah, and so I'd love to have you do that. But then, you know, even with lots of things like, using their voice that's been my thing is I haven't, you know, I've struggled as a parent, like, Okay, I don't want them to be disrespectful. But I will always I will always defer to using their voice. I would rather have them get in trouble for being a mouthy child using their voice then not so. But I'd love to hear your talk the hug conversation.
Mr. Fox 28:54
Oh, that a great way to talk about consent is not actually about sex, but it's do you want to get a hug from your grandparent? Do you want to get a hug from your friend right now? Being able to say no, I don't want any physical touch even from someone who is close to me, and is a safe person. That's a very important step for people to take. And to some degree. That's where we start learning how to say, No, we're not doing that now. No, we're not doing this here. No, if you want that we're going to talk about a lot more first, as opposed to when we're in our mid 30s, or our 20s or even our late teens or early and suddenly in a situation where we need to be able to do that and don't know how. So starting there is a very important piece.
Samantha Spittle 29:38
Yeah, I think that's a great tidbit or aha moment or something whatever you want to call it of just a wait so much of this normalizing it is not in the context of sex because then these are just values that you are raising your family your children with. So I like that.
Mr. Fox 29:57
Um, another one that I really liked pointing out when we watch any sort of TV or movie that involves a romantic aspect, what usually happens when the date is over? And the person is being dropped off? Yes, yes. That is something that kids see from what, six months to a year if they watch enough Disney movies. Yeah. So they've already been exposed to all of these things, and being able to point out, you know, you don't have to let someone kiss you if you don't want to be kissed that dare I say, you know, the story of Sleeping Beauty. Yes, it's wonderful. She's not dead from a poisoned apple. And also, you shouldn't randomly kiss people when they're asleep. That's creepy. Super creepy. No, it doesn't need to be about sex, talk about boundaries and what feels good. A really important one that I again, can't remember where I heard it was the importance of telling young kids that even if something may feel good in the moment, if it doesn't feel good afterwards, that's something we should talk about.
Samantha Spittle 31:07
That's good to re say. So it may feel good in the moment, but it does doesn't feel good afterwards. That's one of those things that, as you said it as a parent. Imagine saying it's awkward, but so important to say. And it reminds me of mental health stuff, you know, talking about, it's it's hard to bring up serious mental health stuff like suicide and things like that. So we, we tiptoe around it. But the best advice is, we talk about it, you know, and we talk about it with people instead of tiptoeing around it. And I feel like I'm connecting these dots once again, of like, oh, we just need to say these things like, we need to address that it is going to be super awkward to think about our kid maybe engaging in things that are facts and whatnot. But yeah, they need to know that. Okay, yeah, it might be good. But if you're having these feelings, you need to listen to those feelings afterwards.
Mr. Fox 31:58
Also, for all the parents who want to make sure that they can empower their adolescents and teens to be independent, try things explore, the more you talked about it, the more you try and make it a normalized thing, the more likely it is that they're going to be coming to you when they actually need you.
Samantha Spittle 32:16
There's a lot in the media, you know, about wanting to protect kids from sex and all this stuff. And I think everyone's pretty much on the same page that no one wants to be, you know, you said before about age appropriate, we're not talking to six year olds about stuff. So I love that. But if we're looking at it, kind of through that lens of like, protect the children, how I guess it's like, oh, this is just that awkward parent thing where it's like, well, I just want don't want them to have any experiences that could hurt or harm them, like, so I want to keep them in the bubble, which that could be any topic we talked about, right? Like, we just so it's so natural for us as parents to want to keep our kids safe. But then when we release them into the world, I mean, most people listening, they if they had certain college experiences that a lot of us, you know, there's chaos ensues. So you already said about, you know, normalizing the conversation, because they'll actually come to you about it. Any other thoughts on that kind of this struggle of parents and how to navigate this world where they're getting all these messages, and which, by the way, side note, just watched a documentary from the 70s of a serial killer in Times Square. And like, Times Square was crazy. I mean, anyone listening that's older than, like, 40 knows, probably like the image of Times Square more, but anyone probably is. Oh, my gosh, see? And I'm like, oh, no, that was so Oh, my gosh, so z, and I'm like, Don't
Mr. Fox 33:40
me wrong, it was terrible. And there's so many things that were wrong. And also, yeah, New York City and Times Square in the 70s, there was a lot of sex despite sex not being something that was supposed to be talked about. Well, that's
Samantha Spittle 33:51
why, you know, there was a detour but it actually is part of my thought process is it's like, we you know, we're in the world now, where it's like, oh, my gosh, these kids are being so exposed to sex, everywhere getting in and out. And it's like, I was watching that documentary thinking this is the 70s and I mean, there's like pornos happening on Time Square. People just walk into work. And there's only sex shops like, you know, maybe because the internet it's more pervasive there. You only you had to be in New York, but it was still happening. And so it's like, oh, how much has the world changed the exposure? For sure. I know, you know, access to internet all that. So anyway, I guess it's like all that's in my head of like, the world has we humans. I mean, hello, sex is how we've survived. That's how we keep going. So it's always been there.
Mr. Fox 34:38
I mean, just last week, I was going to a park and I sat on a bench and I got to sit and watch two kids make the biggest scene in the world. They were giddy. They were excited. They were telling everyone that walked by, hey, look, those turtles are having sex. Oh my God, those trails are having sex. I need to videotape those turtles having sex. Do you want to videotape those girls having sex and using terminal side effects? Did you know turtles have set? Like they were so happy? And apparently, at some point, just walked to a nearby bench and sat down tried to pretend that no Those aren't my kids talking about animals having said publicly loudly and drawing everyone's attention? That's the reality of it. If, if you see animals during the springtime, why do we call the birds and the bees because that's naturally what happens in the spring? Yeah, it's also why we need to make sure not to actually use that term, because when we're only talking about sex, in terms of animals, we're not talking about consent we're not talking about comes with the directions.
Samantha Spittle 35:35
So as we're starting to wrap it up, you know, I kind of for me, because if we're looking at this kind of through my own lens, this kind of tug and pull and wanting to normalize it, but wanting to also kind of keep this protection is my own assumptions. But it's like, I would want to put it off because it's like, you know, once you see something that's so like, porn, for example, early exposure to it, it's like, that is for if your brain is not ready for it, you know, traumatizing I mean, so you've got this, this lens of there's this like, too early not ready, it's trauma, and then maybe not want to put you know, however, you're defining the trauma, you know, like it, could you get into a relationship, and you have sex. And, you know, the follow up that could happen from that or more of the emotional bond. I mean, there's all these reasons beyond just the like, religious framework of you're supposed to wait, I mean, there's just so much of, so I guess how, what is your non judgmental, not connected to the child view on that, I don't want kids to jump into the waters, you know, before they can swim, is kind of what I'm thinking. And for a parent, I think you are thinking, you know, you want to keep your kid on the shore, you don't think they can swim until they're 30 years old,
Mr. Fox 36:52
started by doing some research. And I say that because it's important to have more perspective on this topics. A great example is how for decades, there are numerous people who will say that giving kids birth control is going to encourage them to be more promiscuous, it is basically giving permission for them to have sex, the data doesn't support that. They're just going back decades. At this point, it's showing that no young girls who are put on birth control are not necessarily any more promiscuous, and girls who aren't put on birth control. When you have an actual conversation, that first place gives them more to work with in terms of how to handle themselves and manage those things. And also, similarly, sometimes those things are needed birth control, has been shown to have very significant impacts on a woman's cycle on a young girl's cycle, as well as the emotional impacts. So to some degree, looking at the actual data, because we all have our own biases, we all have our own assumptions about how things work. From there, the more we talked about it, you're not really going to be encouraging it because most parents aren't actively going to be saying things like, Oh, hey, we had the top now go out and find a date or Oh, hey, we had a talk now, go out and hook up with the first person you meet. That's not something that most parents are going to do. It's an understandable concern for parents who don't want their kids to rush and want to make sure the kids are safe. And at same time, there's only so much we can do to control that. So we start by talking about it early and talking about the risks talking about what's normalizing it.
Samantha Spittle 38:25
Alright, so what are some of the risks? You know, each parent has their own things, but just to like, okay, what are the things I need to keep in mind when I'm having these conversations,
Mr. Fox 38:37
it's only awkward if you make it awkward. Because your kids are going to follow your lead. If they see that you're off topic, they're going to be uncomfortable about the topic. So spend some time saying all the vocab words and all the uncomfortable questions that you can beforehand, practice if you need, from there encouraged encourage them to explore themselves, not in terms of going out and meeting up with everyone not in terms of trying to masturbate when they're five years old. But in terms of the reality that yes, biologically speaking, that is the thing that happens. It doesn't need to be something that has all the social connotation, biologically speaking, our bodies developed that way. If we talk about it in a strictly biological sense, that takes away some of the tension and stigma and context and then one that's more appropriate because they are actively going to be engaging with peers around their age, hopefully, with those topics, which usually start somewhere after age eight, if not sooner. That's how they make sure that whatever they end up doing doesn't hurt someone else. I can't count the number of stories I've heard from older generations about how they grew up playing doctor.
Unknown Speaker 39:48
Same thing, yeah.
Mr. Fox 39:49
Yeah. We can talk about the more normalized set the less stigma kind of similar to alcohol in European countries where you can start drinking at age 18 and Some places earlier, and those countries see a lower rate of driving while intoxicated. Violence while intoxicated. public indecency. Yes, there's spaces where those things happen. Sure. And that happens everywhere. By taking away the taboo, we don't encourage it, we simply take away the thing that makes it more taboo, which is actually encouraging it anyways, because we all want to try the thing we're not supposed to do. Yeah. Don't look down, don't push the red button, what do you do you want to look down and press the red button? Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 40:32
Kids are the same way.
Samantha Spittle 40:33
Yeah, that's great. Fox, thank you. Because I feel like you know, as we're wrapping this up, I realized, like, okay, you can go into the conversation with whatever your values, your boundaries, your beliefs are, you know, however, you're coming to the table. Because Because the bottom line is true in every single situation, which is normalizing the conversation, and you can share your values with your kids have, these are our beliefs. And, you know, because what we've also talked about on like, parenting episodes is the autonomy of our children, we can instill all the values and beliefs that we want, but spoiler alert, our children are still their own people with their own beliefs. And so I really just, I love the reminder of, you know, having these conversations, normalizing them, getting in touch with our own, you know, stories, our own boundaries, so that basically, as theme of the podcast often is working our own shit out, so that we can then have these conversations. And I think that, you know, similar to like, the mental health conversations is that there's such a fear of if we talk about it, it makes it real. Or if we talk about it, it will then be some sort of permission for them to go do it. And if we just don't talk about it, it won't. And I think today, I was just encouraged like, oh, okay, talking about it, will not suddenly cause it to happen. So thank you. Very well.
Mr. Fox 41:56
process takes time.
Samantha Spittle 41:58
Yeah, yes, well, and it's like, I know, I'm not alone. And it's like, I can talk about things to a certain degree. And it is so different, though. How, you know, if you're talking to a friend or someone else, and you know, someone who's not connected to you, but things change when it's your own life or your kids. It's just, it's so different. And I love how we're just being curious. You know, it's a lot with coaching. They are very, you know, therapists and coaches very curious. So it's like being curious with ourselves of like, why does this make me uncomfortable, because a lot of our default is like, just shut it down, I'm uncomfortable, we're just gonna button that up. And really, it's an opportunity to kind of dig a little deeper. So
Mr. Fox 42:35
very much a conscious observation makes a huge difference.
Samantha Spittle 42:39
Conscious observation makes a huge difference. I love that. So just to remind everyone, if anything we talked about today is, of course triggering highly recommend reaching out to you know, a professional therapist, you can also work with coaches to help unpack some of this stuff. And that leads us to you, Fox, I would love to have you share with everyone how they can get in touch with you.
Mr. Fox 42:59
So my coaching practice is called calm bucks coaching ca LM box coaching. It's on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter as at comm Fox coaching. And on my website comp bucks. coaching.com is where you can schedule a free 45 minute call either to hear more about how I work with people and see if it's a good fit, or simply to have 45 minutes event because after the last three years, all of us could use one hour just to vent about whatever we need, without having any judgment or negativity thrown back at us.
Samantha Spittle 43:32
Definitely, well, I appreciate your positive dodge judgmental space and you know, this place where I can process stuff people can join in on that conversation. Because I think as you said, that's really the big part of it is just acknowledging that it's awkward. And, you know, I, as I said before, it's like, oh, how do we how do we have this conversation? And it's like you said, this is how we have it. We just show up as it is. So thank you for showing up and allowing me to show up as I am.
Mr. Fox 44:01
Likewise, you're holding the space for me to talk about these things. Thank you. Thank you